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29 JANUARY 1940
Later, after Purani had come, there was an expectation that Nirodbaran would ask a question. All were looking at one another. The situation was so funny that Nirodbaran burst into laughter. PURANI: Nirodbaran is on the point of asking some question. SRI AUROBINDO: Is it a formidable question? NIRODBARAN: Oh, no. But did you say in the morning that the female element Krishnaprem speaks of corresponds or is equivalent to love, devotion, etc.? SRI AUROBINDO: No, I didn't say that. Why should it be so? SATYENDRA: Yes, why? Doesn't Sachchidananda have love! NIRODBARAN: As Krishnaprem speaks of the Vaishnavas' self-identification with the Gopis, I thought it comes to that. Otherwise, why does he associate receptiveness with the female element? SRI AUROBINDO: Because the female is passive, dependent though she may be passively active! The male is active, strong and self-reliant. That, at any rate, is what the word "male" suggests in English. SATYENDRA: Receptiveness includes these things and is a way of representing the inner life and working. PURANI: Even if you accept that, you can't say that the male aspect is without love. SRI AUROBINDO: The male aspect also loves-it is devoted to a woman—but in a different way. Similarly the female has other aspects than love. PURANI: We have to consider the Tantric idea of Shakti. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. NIRODBARAN: At the end of his letter Krishnaprem says that both the elements should be equal; one mustn't stress one aspect more. Is this true? SRI AUROBINDO: What do you mean by "true"? If you mean true as a fact, then it is not. But he says "should be." NIRODBARAN: But is the idea correct? PURANI: Perhaps he means that in an ideal case there would be equality. NIRODBARAN: But why? There may be people, even if exceptional, who don't believe in the male element, that is, in Tapasya. For instance, Girish Ghosh refused point-blank to take Ramakrishna's name when asked to. He said, "I can't. You have to Page-404
do everything for me." And, as far as I know, there was a great change in his life. PURANI: I have heard that he wasn't able to give himself completely to Ramkrishna. SRI AUROBINDO: You mean that he made some personal effort? PURANI: He found at the end that he hadn't left everything to Ramkrishna. SRI AUROBINDO: That means he put in some effort of his NIRODBARAN: I haven't heard this. SATYENDRA: Then he must have had entire faith in Ramkrishna. NIRODBARAN: Yes. So I say that if one has a living faith, one is not required to do Tapasya. Isn't that true? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. SATYENDRA: But aren't some effort and straining inevitable? NIRODBARAN: As for myself, I have found that many things have dropped away—maybe temporarily—from me without my making any effort worth the name. SRI AUROBINDO: But you wanted sincerely to drop them. NIRODBARAN: Yes, I did, but without making any effort. So I say it was due to Grace. SRI AUROBINDO: That may be so in your case. NIRODBARAN: No. In many cases I have known things to have happened in this way. PURANI: That was some effort. Only, you can say that the effort was negligible in proportion to the success. SRI AUROBINDO: It is not a question of proportion. One may have put in a great deal of effort and yet there could be no result because there was not a complete and total sincerity. On the other hand when the result comes with little effort it is because the whole being is responded - and Grace found it possible to act. All the same effort is a contributory factor. Sometimes one goes on making an effort with no result or even the condition becomes worse. And when one has given it up, one finds suddenly that the result has come. It may be that the effort was keeping up the resistance too. And when the effort is given up, the resistance says, "This fellow has given up effort. what is the use of resisting any more?" (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: Champaklal also doesn't believe in Tapasya. Page-405 CHAMPAKLAL: By that I don't mean one must indulge in the lower nature. But otherwise I don't believe in Tapasya - it's true. SRI AUROBINDO: But when one wants something, one has to concentrate one's energies on a particular point. NIRODBARAN: That, of course; but is that the sense of the word Tapasya? By "Tapasya" we mean something done against one's nature, something unpleasant and requiring effort. SRI AUROBINDO: That is the popular idea of Tapasya. People think it means standing on their heads, sitting on nails, etc. It is not the correct idea. The correct idea is: concentration of all one's energies in order to gain a particular object or aim which one wants, and this is not always unpleasant or difficult. PURANI: Why does Nirodbaran think that effort is always associated with struggle, unpleasantness? SRI AUROBINDO: Tapasya can surely be done for something one likes or wishes to have. NIRODBARAN: But when I sit in meditation, for instance, I have to make an effort to gather up my scattered mind which is moving about. And it is an unpleasant laborious effort. SRI AUROBINDO: But something in you wants to do it, otherwise you wouldn't do it. You gather up your energies and put them on a particular point. NIRODBARAN: Yes, but even for that gathering up, some effort is necessary, which is not always easy. SRI AUROBINDO: When you want a thing, effort will always be there to get it. It is more a concentration of energy, I should say.. CHAMPAKLAL: A man may find it easy to meditate for many hours. SRI AUROBINDO: But there also you have to concentrate all your energy. A man who is playing cricket has to concentrate on the ball, the bat, the wicket, etc., gathering up all his energies from other fields. NIRODBARAN: That is comparatively easy because he finds interest in the game. PURANI: But it wouldn't be easy for a man who doesn't like cricket but likes hockey. NIRODBARAN: A sportsman can shift his interest without much difficulty. Page- 406
SRI AUROBINDO: It is said in the Upanishad that God created the world by Tapas. I believe he didn't find it difficult, though he had to make an effort.(Laughter) NIRODBARAN: If you bring in God, we mortals have no chance. PURANI: That is only an illustration. SRI AUROBINDO: I myself have to make an effort to read and interpret the Vedas, but I don't find it unpleasant; another may. (To Nirodbaran) When you write poetry, you have to make an effort, but it is not unpleasant. NIRODBARAN: Sometimes I am on the verge of kicking away pencil and book. SATYENDRA: There are instances in literature to explain some points about concentration of energy. For example, a woman goes about doing various works while she keeps a pitcher on her head. Her inner mind is concentrated on the pitcher though the outer is otherwise engaged. NIRODBARAN: But she had to practise keeping the pitcher on her head. SATYENDRA: In the case of the Gopis, it was not that they had to make difficult effort to remember Krishna: they spontaneously fell in love with him and something in them was on fire. So when something in the being is touched the concentration doesn't require labour or effort. By the way, at times one may make an effort for a thing, but the result comes in quite a different way. SRI AUROBINDO: That very often happens. In my ease, Lele wanted me to get devotion, love and hear the inner voice, but instead I got the experience of the silent Brahman. SATYENDRA: And he prayed with incantations, etc., to pull you up to the other condition. (Laughter). SRI AUROBINDO: No rigid rule is possible to make in these matters. NIRODBARAN: That is why I don't quite like the last part of Krishnaprem's letter where he says that male and female must be equal and that one can't be without the other, and such things. SRI AUROBINDO: He says 'should be". not "must be". NIRODBARAN: But why should it be? SRI AUROBINDO: That is his point of view. He is free to hold it. Page- 407
NIRODBARAN: X was converted from Tapasya to Grace by the effectivity of Grace in stopping his chess-playing! He says that all his resolutions were of no avail and so he prayed and prayed one night for help to stop it. From the next day till now he has played chess only two or three times. The result, he says, can't but be due to Grace. SRI AUROBINDO (enjoying the story): The salvation from chess was the starting point of his belief in Grace! Is that the only instance he has had? NIRODBARAN: He particularly remembers this one. Now to return to the subject of poetry. Did you not say that, taken poem by poem, Villon's work is as great as any other poet's while, taken in a mass, one can't justify the comparison? SRI AUROBINDO: I didn't speak about mass. Villon is considered a great poet in France and certainly he is the greatest that preceded Corneille and Racine. NIRODBARAN: But I thought you said that his poems taken singly are as great as those of any other poet. SRI AUROBINDO: I didn't put it in that way, but that is the impression he creates. (After a pause) His life is very interesting. He was a murderer, robber, vagabond. It was almost his profession. He was a profligate of the worst type throughout his life, belonging to the lowest criminal class. NIRODBARAN: Maupassant also was like that? SRI AUROBINDO: Like that? NIRODBARAN: I mean a loose character. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, many writers are pretty loose in character. NIRODBARAN: Dilip says his idea of the greatness of a poet is still hazy. He wants to know if by writing a single great poem one can deserve to be called a great poet. SRI AUROBINDO: Haven't we already dealt with this question? All depends on the poem. If a poet has written a few perfect lyrics he can be called great. Francis Thompson's "Hound of Heaven" makes him great. We spoke also of Sappho and Simonides. NIRODBARAN: Yes, I told Dilip about Sappho and about the fragments Simonides wrote. Page-408
SRI AUROBINDO: simonides did not write fragments, but only fragments are left of what he wrote. And from them one can judge that he is a great poet. NIRODBARAN: Dilip says these are Greek poets and we know nothing of Greek, so we can't judge them. SRI AUROBINDO: But we know about them and by that we can call them great. NIRODBARAN: Now take the Bengali poet Govind Das, he says. His poem beginning, " I love you with your bone and flesh," is regarded as a great poem. It has much power but this is the only poem that is great in his works. The others are no good. Can we call him a great poet? SRI AUROBINDO: oh! that Govind Das! I have read some of his poems. But, I don't think this poem is as great as "The Hound of Heaven. NIRODBARAN: When I said that Petrarch is considered second in greatness to Dante, Dilip replied "That may be, but surely there is a vast difference between their greatnesses." SRI AUROBINDO: Still, both are great. NIRODBARAN: The Difference is that Dante has reached a very great height which Petrarch hasn't. SRI AUROBINDO: Petrarch is a great poet all the same. There are people who hold that Petrarch has a greater perfection of form than Dante. NIRODBARAN: But say if Tagore had written only "Urvasi" and nothing else, could he have been called a great poet? SRI AUROBINDO: Urvasi is not such a great poem that it could take its place in world literature. NIRODBARAN: Dilip's idea of a great poet is that he must have what he calls " girth" (parishar) , wideness, volume, just as Wordsworth and Shelley have. SRI AUROBINDO: Poetry can also have height, depth and intensity: It need not have "girth". Besides, nowadays people consider that mass, volume, is a heavy baggage that weighs poetry down. NIRODBARAN: Dilip says he does not know how to define greatness but one can say that Shakespeare, Dante, Wordsworth, Shelley are great and one should reserve the epithet for such men only. SRI AUROBINDO: Shakespeare and Dante are among the greatest. A poet like Browning has plenty of mass, volume, Page-409
"girth" as you say, but he is a different case. Once he used to be rated a great poet. NIRODBARAN: Browning? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Both Browning and Tennyson ranked as great—they 'were just below Shakespeare and Milton. But can Browning be taken to be a greater poet than Thompson? Has he any single poem as great as "The Hound of Heaven"? NIRODBARAN: Satyendra Dutt was also called a great poet once. SRI AUROBINDO : Is he equal to Browning? NIRODBARAN: Dilip says English critics don't think of Thompson as a great poet, certainly not as being on a level with Wordsworth and Shelley. SRI AUROBINDO: Who are these English critics? Wordsworth and Shelley have an established reputation. I consider Thompson a great poet because he has expressed an aspect of Truth with such force and richness as no other poet before him has done, and he has dealt with one of the greatest subjects the human mind can take up. But what is the general opinion of his other poems? NIRODBARAN: I don't know. Dilip doesn't find much in them, Thompson is known only by this one poem, he says. PURANI: His other poems also are very good. SRI AUROBINDO: Amal also says that several of Thompson's poems are original and inspired. NIRODBARAN: Apropos of Madhusudan you seem to have written to Dilip that to be a great poet power is not enough. SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on the content of the power. The Subject Madhusudan deals with is poor in substance. I don't say he is not a great poet, but with his power of style, expression and rhythm he should have got the first rank like Milton, but he didn't because of the lack of substance. He has said things in a great way but what he has said is not great.
PURANI: I asked Kapali if he knew anything about the year of the gods. He says he can't exactly make out what is meant and doubts if it was Indian at all and wonders whether the astrologer has not simply put India's name to it. He will look up Varahamihira. Page-410
SRI AUROBINDO: No, it can't simply be imaginary because the astrologer has given exact and precise details and says that things have come out true according to it. PURANI: Science has discovered many new planes now which weren't known before and couldn't be used by astrologers. SRI AUROBINDO: He speaks of Uranus as well as Neptune; there is one Kutsa which I haven't heard of. But he has placed all these new planets in his calculations. Uranus seems to be the planet of dictators. Stalin is one and Daladier also. PURANI: Daladier also? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he is now coming forth as a dictator and is practical one. PURANI: Kapali says instead of asking him you could yourself say something about the time of the year of the gods. SRI AUROBINDO: The gods perhaps don't know anything about it. SATYENDRA: They may have a different time-value. SRI AUROBINDO: Based on astrological data perhaps, and so it is the astrologers who shouldn't know about it. NIRODBARAN: Nishicanto had another letter from Tagore in reply to his. Nishicanto, advised by Dilip wrote to Tagore informing him of the refusal of Viswa Bharati to publish his book. SRI AUROBINDO: Why? Tagore didn't know about it? NIRODBARAN: They say he may not have as it is under the management of the committee with which Tagore has nothing to do. SRI AUROBINDO: What does he write? NIRODBARAN: Tagore says the same thing - that he has nothing to do with them. Any publication depends on financial considerations. They don't want to incur any loss over any book and that is why they refused Nishikanto's book. The next point he writes about is that Nisikanto, being a Yogi, shouldn't mind if some people don't like his poems; different people have different tastes; It is a foolishness to go out with a stick and fight with people who don't appreciate one's poetry. He says he has had to face people's criticism. SRI AUROBINDO: He felt very bitter, didn't he? NIRODBARAN: Yes, he admits that. By the way, I had a vision in which you were giving a hypothetical medical guidance. In medication I was discussing with somebody the diagnosis of a case. Page-411
Suddenly I heard your voice saying, "Are you sure it is not typhoid?" There was no possibility of typhoid but because of your suggestion I had to think about it. SRI AUROBINDO: Was it a vision or a dream? NIRODBARAN: I don't know; it may have been either but I heard your voice distinctly. SRI AUROBINDO: When was it? NIRODBARAN: "While you were walking. Does it indicate your possible future guidance or any cases coming? SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know; it may possibly be guidance. PURANI : Champaklal had a vision. CHAMPAKLAL: I saw Nirodbaran meditating under a canopy in a Buddha-like posture. Does it mean anything? SRI AUROBINDO: I can't say. CHAMPAKLAL: I also saw him doing pranam, and you patting him. SRI AUROBINDO: Do you see many visions of him? CHAMPAKLAL: I have had three or four. While Sri Aurobindo was lying in bed, Nirodbaran read out Tagore's letter. SRI AUROBINDO: It seems Nishikanto was vexed because his book was not published. NIRODBARAN: Nishikanto told me he didn't write about any vexation but he must have been vexed and a little of it must have found expression in the letter. PURANI: I spoke to Kapali yesterday, and gave him the data from that book. He says the calculation of time according to the year of the gods must be different — 365 days of the human year would be one day of theirs or something like that. Then Kapali says that these calculations have been based on newly discovered planets which were unknown before. So how could any calculations have been made using the year of the gods when these planets didn't exist? SRI AUROBINDO: But the principle was there. They have introduced these planets now. We must also do the same. These Page-412 calculations aren't based on astrology but on prophecy and the prophecies also based on the old block of Nostradamus. The Mother has seen this book in the original form and she says that anything could be made out of anything from it. PURANI: As from the Rigveda? NIRODBARAN: (to Satyendra): So you see. SATYENDRA: See what? NIRODBARAN: You said the supramental is still very far off. PURANI: It may be to-morrow. SATYENDRA: How? What are you driving at? NIRODBARAN: This man's prophesy about the new race isn't correct, as anything can be made out of anything, and you said that by his reading the supermind is far off. That is what I am driving at. (Sri Aurobindo was laughing all the time) SATYENDRA: It may be possible for one man but not for the race. SRI AUROBINDO: For the race he says millennium. SATYENDRA: But according to this man our continent will be submerged under water. SRI AUROBINDO: Like Atlantis? And your intuition of brinjal and typhoid won't have any chance.(Laughter) NIRODBARAN: Quite welcome. PURANI: He has brought out new planes. Uranus SRI AUROBINDO: And Pluto. Uranus, he says, is more psychic in nature. NIRODBARAN: How can that be when Stalin is under Uranus? SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? Dictators sometimes bring about profound changes. Daladier also. It is the planet of the dictators. PURANI: Mussolini too. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; this astrologer is impressed by Mussolini, and is a violent anti-communist. But for England to become communist would be a tremendous change as well as for the Scandinavian countries. PURANI: (after some time) Anilbaran wants to know if he should reply to Basanta Chatterji.
SRI AUROBINDO: (after short pause): Yes, he can write that Sri Aurobindo hasn't denied the existence of the gods; on the contrary he has affirmed it. He has said that in the Vedas they are not psychological images but realities. Chatterji has misinterpreted Sri Aurobindo. Anilbaran can also write that the Vedic hymns have Page-413 both inner and outer interpretations. According to the inner esoteric interpretation, one may speak of the gods as well as of principles. If I speak of Agni as Tapas¹ it is as a psychological principle. It doesn't mean that by being a god of Tapas he is no more a god of the fire of sacrifice. Agni is taken as a psychological principle as well as a god. (After a while) And he can also quote the Chandi where it says the goddess inhabits all creatures in the form of benevolence. It doesn't mean that because she inhabits them in the form of benevolence she is not a goddess. As a psychological image she is described in the form of benevolence. Similarly, Agni can take the form of Tapas. He can also say that Sri Aurobindo hasn't criticised Sayana's polytheistic interpretation of the Vedas but rather his predominantly ritualistic interpretation. And he can point out that Sri Aurobindo has no Western stamp in his interpretation. At the same time Sri Aurobindo speaks of one Supreme God from whom all other gods have emanated. PURANI (after a long break in the talk): In Gurukul they have an exercise or drill of laughter. When students are asked to laugh, they have to laugh. SRI AUROBINDO: Not cry? In Baroda the military department instituted a drill of urination. (Laughter) As soon as the order was passed, everybody would urinate together. EVENING PURANI: J has sent a letter saying that he was arrested by the Government because of his anti-war pamphlet and that he was released on personal security. SRI AUROBINDO: What a genius, for getting into trouble! PURANI: Somebody from Oundh is trying to bring out Vedas, classifying the Suktas according to hymns and also according to the Rishis addressed.
¹Tapas: concentrated energy. Page-414 SRI AUROBINDO: That was my idea too. I wanted to translate and arrange the Suktas in that way. EVENING
PURANI: Abhay was telling me that in his presence an Arya Samaj leader had a talk with Gandhi about the Hindu-Muslim problem. Gandhi and other Congress leaders seem to have realised that these Muslims are becoming more and more threatening and it would be good for the Hindus also to organise themselves. Gandhi seems to have said to this leader that instead of sitting idle and being beaten by the Muslims they should also organise and fight. If you can't accept non-violence as your principle I have never asked you to defeat. Instead of sitting like cowards, violence is better. SRI AUROBINDO: The leader should have said, "It will help our cause if you do some violence." (Laughter)
PURANI: Many people are coming from Bengal for the darshan and many Zamindars too. NIRODBARAN: Zamindars? Only in name, perhaps. SRI AUROBINDO: Kiran S. Roy is coming. Suren Ghose seems to be arranging for seven persons to accompany him. I don't know how many will actually come. NIRODBARAN: I am glad that Bengal is turning now to Sri Aurobindo. PURANI: How do you mean? You can say the "non-public" is coming now. NIRODBARAN: Charupada and Sotuda will be very glad. SRI AUROBINDO: Why? NIRODBARAN: Because they were worrying about what would happen to Bengal after this Muslim Raj. SRI AUROBINDO: What will happen to Bengal depends on Charupada and Sotuda. NIRODBARAN: Anyhow, it is the effect of the Muslim Raj. Page- 415 PURANI : It seems Huq is trying to come to an agreement with the Bengal Hindu leaders. SRI AUROBINDO: He is not out to get Muslim Raj? PURANI: He may have realised that it wouldn't do. It seems that among the Muslims there is a Socialist party which says that the problem is not at all religious but economic. SRI AUROBINDO: One can look at any question as one likes. (Laughter). PURANI: Professor Kabir and others are for an agreement with the Hindus. The Viceroy is seeing Jinnah on the 6th. It is not known whether the Viceroy has called him or Jinnah himself has asked to see him. SRI AUROBINDO: The Viceroy must have called him. PURANI: It would be better if Sikandar Hyat Khan were to be with him. SRI AUROBINDO: The Viceroy has already seen him. The Viceroy has some plan perhaps. He may be coming to a compromise with Gandhi and wants to warn Jinnah or tell him to square up. SATYENDRA: It is strange that Jinnah has never said what he wants. SRI AUROBINDO: Perhaps he doesn't know it himself-unless he wants to be a Minister. NIRODBARAN: And that he can't say publicly. SRI AUROBINDO: But it is clear what he wants. He wants either a Muslim half of India over which he can rule or some arrangement by which he can rule at Delhi. In that way Sikandar is clever. His scheme looks democratic and at the same time will satisfy what he wants. PURANI: Sir Raja Ali is angry with Gandhi because Gandhi says most of the Muslims were originally Hindus. Raja Ali says it is insulting. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): But it is true. Most of the Muslims were Hindus. PURANI: Raja Ali says the Muslims are democratic. SRI AUROBINDO: That is a different story. It does not exclude the fact that they were Hindus. PURANI: No. From Shah Jehan onwards a new relationship began between Muslims and Hindus. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Dara, Shah Jehan's son, was almost a Hindu. Page-416 PURANI: One Dr. Kantilal has asked what one should do, and how to become fit in order to come here. SRI AUROBINDO: He can do anything that will make him fit. (Laughter) PURANI: No, he wants some guidence or direction. SRI AUROBINDO: That is another matter. He wanted to "become" something. If he wants guidence, then consecration and quietude of mind. PURANI: I shall write to him. SATYENDRA: I know him immediately. He came here once. He wanted advice from me, but as I kept silent he wrote to Purani. He has been in contact with many Yogis but remains unsatisfied. He has read the Arya too. CHAMPAKLAL: Pujalal was saying that Parvati, worshipping the sun by gazing at it, obtained Shiva. How is it she didn't go blind by gazing at the sun? SRI AUROBINDO: Why should she go blind? CHAMPAKLAL: We have a saying by gazing at the sun one goes blind. PURANI: Because of its strong rays, especially midday you will go blind. CHAMPAKLAL: Is that a symbolic sun at which one has to gaze? SRI AUROBINDO: No; one can gaze at the physical sun by practising gradually, little by little. I asked R to practise. He said "Oh, I'll go blind!" But I didn't go blind. CHAMPAKLAL: You also practised it? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Of course everyone can't do it. PURANI: One has to start with the morning sun. I could gaze about three hours. EVENING CHAMPAKLAL: Puljalal was asking if the light of the sun can help one spiritually. SRI AUROBINDO: Spiritually? It can help indirectly. CHAMPAKLAL: He was also asking what effect the practice of eating leaves, fasting etc. can have. SRI AUROBINDO: They help one too get mastery over the body and will. Page- 417 CHAMPAKLAL: And does the light of the sun also help physically? SRI AUROBINDO: That is Agarwal's department. (Laughter) It is a yogic practice. Of course, it does not. give you the knowledge of the Brahman but it helps indirectly, as I said, by preparing you for it. PURANI: An advocate from Calcutta was angry with Nolini because he wasn't given a room to stay in the Ashram. SRI AUROBINDO: Did he think it was a free hotel? PURANI : Afterwards Y met him and explained to him that this Ashram is not like others. So he had no reason to be angry with Nolini. Y was on the point of becoming angry with the advocate because he flared up against Nolini. Purani read out a fine joke from the Indian Express which Sri Aurobindo enjoyed very much. SRI AUROBINDO (replying in the same vein): You saw the article about Hitler's secret weapon? Somebody writes that Hitler will drop gas bombs on England and people will fall asleep for a fortnight. When they wake up they will find themselves already invaded by Germany! (Laughter) PURANI: And the German invaders won't fall asleep by the effect of the gas? SATYENDRA: The descent of Supermind will be like that. Nirodbaran will fall asleep and on waking up he will see that it has descended. NIRODBARAN: And that Satyendra is supramentalised! SRI AUROBINDO: Or it may be like the case of Haranath. SATYENDRA: That was really remarkable. The colour of Haranath's skin changed during a serious illness when he was lying unconscious; his companions thought he was .dead and started arranging for .his funeral. NIRODBARAN: Anilbaran has forwarded a letter from some Rajkumar Bhattacharya of Dacca, who seems to be a permanent invalid from asthma and bronchitis and has no energy left for Page- 418 sadhana. He has a dozen children. His wife died last year. He says that strangely enough he didn't cough a single time while writing the letter. SRI AUROBINDO: Then he can go on writing such letters. But why did he spend all his energy in creating and rearing children, so that none is left for sadhana? NIRODBARAN: Do you think birth control would have helped? People say birth control has no religious sanction. Children are supposed to be given by God.. SRI AUROBINDO: So is asthma then. Why take any treatment for it? NIRODBARAN: Birth control is an artificial means. Gandhi is against it. SRI AUROBINDO: I know. But civilisation is also artificial, and even Gandhi's loin-cloth. What do you say? NIRODBARAN: But the loin-cloth is such a small artificiality. Gandhi says self-control instead of birth control. The latter is likely to create more indulgence. SRI AUROBINDO: Of course if one can exercise self-control, it is best. But why didn't this man do that instead of producing six children and causing the death of his wife? Birth control is not creating indulgence in Europe. Indulgence in which respect? Legitimate or illegitimate? NIRODBARAN: Even in legitimate relationships, it is said that birth control will remove the restraint imposed on people by the fear of having a large family. SRI AUROBINDO: Does Gandhi say that? NIRODBARAN: I don't know precisely, but he says that such artificial means cause more harm than good. SRI AUROBINDO: That is a different matter. But I don't think any fear can stop indulgence. People will indulge all the same in spite of fear of consequences when they have an impulse. NIRODBARAN: Under present economic conditions it is better, I think, to adopt birth control. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, since most people can't exercise restraint. NIRODBARAN: There is a divergence of medical opinion on the subject. Some say that restraint produces neurasthenia. SRI AUROBINDO: But, plenty of doctors hold the opposite view, and that is now almost accepted. Page- 419 NIRODBARAN: Some doctors say that early marriage is bad, especially for the woman because her body is still immature and undeveloped and the strain of pregnancy will tell on her health, and that the children born will also be unhealthy. But in ancient India early marriage was the custom and yet people seem to have lived to a ripe old age. SRI AUROBINDO: The long life was due to the early state of mankind. . . PURANI: There was no economic struggle then. SRI AUROBINDO: Apart from that, their habits were vigorous and natural. What, according to medical science, should be the marriage age? NIRODBARAN: Twenty or after. Of course, there is again another school. One famous authority says that early marriage is good and very healthy. After twenty the bones become fixed and rigid. Flexibility of the organs is lost and this causes great difficulty during labour. SRI AUROBINDO: That is true. No rules can be fixed for these things. Formerly sixteen to eighteen was the age for marriage. I know about someone in my uncle's family. I mean Hatkhola Dutta's children. The girl was only thirteen when she first delivered. She got a boy, who I saw when he was thirteen or fourteen. He was very tall, healthy and handsome. The rest of the children, among them three girls, were a little shorter but all handsome. The three girls were the most beautiful I have ever seen and all the children were remarkable specimens of humanity. You know the story of Akshay Maitra? NIRODBARAN: No. SRI AUROBINDO: He was a great social reformer. Once at a meeting he was holding forth against early marriage. After his speech, his father who was present got up and said, "The lecture was very interesting, but the lecturer is my son and was born out of my early marriage. You see how tall and strong and healthy he is? Then he has himself married early and he too has a son who is so strong and rowdy that it is difficult for us to stay at home." (Laughter). NIRODBARAN: The old man must have carried the meeting. Another point in favour of early marriage is that the girl being quite young can be moulded and adapted to the family and there is thus more prospect of happiness. SATYENDRA: That is a point because of the joint-family system. Page-420 NIRODBARAN: No, even otherwise it tends to make the married life of the couple happy. If the girl is already grown up, she has an individuality of her own and is no longer plastic. SRI AUROBINDO: You mean that the girl should always be educated with a view to marriage and she should have no individuality of her own? Most women, of course, think only of marriage and in India they do not have their own individuality. NIRODBARAN: Another interesting argument against birth control is advanced by people who ask: "In cases where an illustrious son is born after the second or third child, what would have happened if birth control had been practised?" SRI AUROBINDO: (laughing): What about the majority of people who are not illustrious? Or the majority of parents who have no illustrious sons? SATYENDRA: Huxley says that everything on the human level is evil. NIRODBARAN: But it is the few illustrious people who raise the level of humanity. SRI AUROBINDO: Some say illustrious people are insane. One valid argument against birth control is the diminution of population. In France, because of the universal practice of it, the population is very low. SATYENDRA: Besides, birth control is still only in an experimental stage. It is too early to say what effects it will have. NIRODBARAN: All the same, it is more extensively practised now. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, in Europe it is practically universal. SATYENDRA: There is an increased number of lunatics in the West, probably due to excessive indulgence. SRI AUROBINDO: I don't think lunacy is due to indulgence. Besides, indulgence is not more now than, say, in the eighteenth century. That period was remarkable for licentiousness. SATYENDRA: If we are to believe what is said in the papers, there is much indulgence today, especially among the aristocrats. SRI AUROBINDO: Not only among them but among the common people too. SATYENDRA: When one reads Balzac, one wonders why people in France marry at all. NIRODBARAN: As Sri Aurobindo once said, "To love to love another!" Page-421 SRI AUROBINDO: Marriage among the French is more for an economic advantage. SATYENDRA: Chastity doesn't seem to exist in France. NIRODBARAN: That is why modernists say chastity is a superstition. SRI AUROBINDO: Bertrand Russell? Chastity is considered a moral need which one outgrows as soon as the need is over. NIRODBARAN: Morality is also regarded as a superstition. But isn't there something good in chastity? SRI AUROBINDO: Any restraint gives one power and strength. Half of Hitler's energy comes from his restraint, though his opponents say that he is a sexual pervert and a lunatic. NIRODBARAN: They call his condition of mind schizophrenia - a psychological disease due to sex-repression. SRI AUROBINDO: I suppose they will call spiritual sex-control mystical schizophrenia. NIRODBARAN: Anthony West and others will say that about Huxley. SRI AUROBINDO: "Spiritual failures!" NIRODBARAN: Anilbaran asks if he could send your blessings to the invalid asthmatic patient. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he can but it doesn't mean that the patient is going to recover. NIRODBARAN: He may get some palliation. But why shouldn't he recover? SRI AUROBINDO: His asthma has been of very long standing and he also has fear. SATYENDRA: Yes, he speaks of fear of death. SRI AUROBINDO: In chronic cases the body forms fixed habits which don't want to go and they throw up strong resistance. NIRODBARAN: But some chronic cases have been cured, for example, Sahana's sister. SRI AUROBINDO: That was not so bad a case, and moreover it depends on the receptivity. SATYENDRA: Diseases are due to attacks of forces. Page-422 |